Moderator Note - Overlapping Debates Warning

J.C. Thibodaux has graciously offered to debate the following resolution:

Resolution: Resolved that doctrine which teaches that genuine Christians cannot end up in hell due to unfaithfulness to God cannot be soundly reconciled with Matthew 5:27-30, Hebrews 4:9-11, and Revelation 22:18-19.

1. Affirmative opening essay.
2. Negative opening essay.
3. Affirmative Cross-Examination of Negative (5 questions).
(Negative answers)
4. Negative Cross-Examination of Affirmative (5 questions).
(Affirmative answers)
5. Negative rebuttal essay.
6. Affirmative rebuttal essay.
7. Negative conclusion essay.
8. Affirmative conclusion essay.

JCT will be taking the affirmative role, and I will be taking the negative role. For labeling purposes I have identified this debate as the "Genuine Christian Apostasy" debate.

I apologize to those readers whose reading of the overlapping Sola Scriptura debate will be interrupted by this debate, which I hope will be a much shorter project - both in terms of length of the essays, as well as the overall duration of the debate.

Announcing a New Debate - Sola Scriptura vs. Roman Catholicism

Mr. Matthew Bellisario (an author and editor of "Catholic Champion") and I (TurretinFan) have agreed to debate the topic of Sola Scriptura. TurretinFan will be affirming the resolution, "Resolved: That Sola Scriptura (as expressed in the Westminster standards) is properly derived from Scripture." The principle portion of the Westminster Standards that deals with the issue is Chapter I, "Of the holy Scripture." This chapter is reproduced below. Sections VII, IX, and X are usually the most hotly debated sections, though of course it will be up to the debaters to identify what they believe are the important points to debate.

The current schedule for the debate is as follows:

1. Affirmative Constructive Essay (5k words maximum) and simultaneously Negative Constructive Essay (5k words maximum) - due June 1
2. Affirmative Rebuttal Essay (5k words maximum) - due July 1
3. Negative Rebuttal Essay (5k words maximum) - due August 1
4. Affirmative Cross-Examination Questions to the Negative (5 questions - 1k words each maximum) - due September 1
5. Negative Cross-Examination Answers to the Affirmative Questions (5k words maximum) and Negative Cross-Examination Questions to the Affirmative (5 questions - 1k words each maximum) - due October 1
6. Affirmative Cross-Examination Answers to the Negative Questions (5k words maximum) - due November 1
7. Affirmative Conclusion Essay (5k words maximum) and simultaneously Negative Conclusion Essay (5k words maximum) - due December 1

The debate will posted both to my debate blog (http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/) and Mr. Bellisario's blog (http://catholicchampion.blogspot.com/).

The debaters have also agreed on some housekeeping rules, which are summarized below:

1. Each writer agrees to send his essay to his opponent on the designated blog on the 1st each month.
2. The blog entry will be for the debaters only, no comments from the peanut gallery.
3. Each writer agrees to the time limitation to complete the necessary essay of one month.
4. Each writer agrees that all rebuttals will be limited to the writing of his opponent. Small quotes from others, are allowed. However, the opponents agree to defend what they have written, not what someone else has.
5. Each writer agrees that his essays will simply be in black and white, no graphics or links.
6. Each writer agrees to conduct the debate in English and not primarily in Greek, Latin, or Hebrew. Small quotes from Greek Lexicons, Scriptures, or Greek Scholars will be allowed. However, the debate is to be conducted for the understanding of the average person.
7. Each writer agrees that no new material will be added in the fourth and final closing essay.
8. Each debater agrees that they will conduct themselves in such a way as to demonstrate charity. (No personal attacks, no name calling, etc.)
9. Each writer agrees that the time and page limitations of essays cannot be exceeded without the prior written acknowledgment of the opponent. The limit is 5000 words per essay.
10. Each writer agrees to use any of the following English Translations of the Bible: Confraternity-Douay Version, Douay-Rheims Version, and Catholic Edition-Revised Standard Version, The New American Bible, the New American Standard Version, King James Version and the New King James Version.
11. The essay format will consist of an opening statement of each debater, one in affirmation the other in the denial position. Then we will have 2 rebuttal essays by each debater followed by each debaters closing essay, summarizing their position using the material they have presented from the first 3 essays. Thus 4 essays total will be presented not exceeding 5000 words each.

CHAPTER I.

Of the holy Scripture.

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation; therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
II. Under the name of holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the Books of the Old and New Testament, which are these:

Of the Old Testament
Genesis	Ecclesiastes
Exodus	The Song of Songs
Leviticus	Isaiah
Numbers	Jeremiah
Deuteronomy	Lamentations
Joshua	Ezekiel
Judges	Daniel
Ruth	Hosea
I Samuel	Joel
II Samuel	Amos
I Kings	Obadiah
II Kings	Jonah
I Chronicles	Micah
II Chronicles	Nahum
Ezra	Habakkuk
Nehemiah	Zephaniah
Esther	Haggai
Job	Zechariah
Psalms	Malachi
Proverbs
Of the New Testament
The Gospels according to	Thessalonians II
Matthew	Timothy I
Mark	Timothy II
Luke	Titus
John	Philemon
The Acts of the Apostles	The Epistle to the
Paul's Epistles to the Romans	Hebrews
Corinthians I	The Epistle of James
Corinthians II	The First and Second
Galatians	Epistles of Peter
Ephesians	The First, Second, and
Philippians	Third Epistles of John
Colossians	The Epistle of Jude
Thessalonians I	The Revelation

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.
III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.
IV. The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or Church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.
V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion the Church is finally to appeal unto them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God who have right unto, and interest in, the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.
IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.
X. The Supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.

-TurretinFan

Call for Audience Questions

I realize some audience members have submitted questions either at my blog or backchannel to me by email. If there are any further questions that people desire to ask, they need to be submitted by the end of the day on January 31, 2008.

There is a word limit on the questions (100 words), and it would be preferable if the question was clearly directed to either PhatCatholic or TurretinFan.

If you'd like, you can submit the questions via the comments box for this post, although I will end up posting any questions in a new post.

As previously agreed, if the number of questions exceeds 5, PC will pick 3 and TF will pick 2 of the questions to be answered.

Announcing the Holy Water Debate

PhatCatholic (profile) has agreed to debate TurretinFan on the resolution:

RESOLVED: That the application of Holy Water is an effective means for stopping demonic forces.

PhatCatholic will take the affirmative position, and TurretinFan will take the negative position.

The agreed-upon format for the debate is:

Affirmative Constructive (1000 words)
Negative C-X (3 questions of 100 words for each question with Aff given 500 words to answer each question)
Negative Constructive (1000 words)
Affirmative C-X (3 questions of 100 words for each question with Neg given 500 words to answer each question)
Negative Rebuttal (500 words)
Affirmative Rebuttal (500 words)
Negative Conclusion (1000 words)
Affirmative Conclusion (1000 words)

No linking in arguments from elsewhere to avoid the word limit.

No comments from the audience until the conclusions are posted.

PhatCatholic can republish the debate on his own blog.

The rebuttal is a chance to briefly argue counterpoints - they could be counter-points to Answers from the Q&A or to the constructive argument.

The word count excludes quotations of Scripture. To avoid the canon argument, we'll include both the 66 books of the Protestant Bible and the additional books accepted by Trent.

The time limit for response is a week, though we will try to proceed more quickly.

We're negotiating the issue of the appropriate penalty for violating the rules.

If one of us needs to extend the word limit, the extension will be applicable to both sides.

May God give the debaters wisdom, so that the readers will be able to discern correctly whether the resolution should be affirmed or not.

Moderator Notes: Time for Conclusions

The time for concluding statements has arrived. Thanks to Orthodox for participating in this debate, as well to our audience, whose comments and questions added a bonus round.

Moderator Note: Audience Questions Closing

Shortly, the three lists of questions for the debaters will be posted.

List One has questions/comments for the Affirmative, to be briefly answered by TurretinFan with a short rebuttal if appropriate and/or necessary (in his judgment) by "Orthodox"

List Two has questions/comments for the Negative, to be briefly answered by "Orthodox" with a short rebuttal if appropriate and/or necessary (in his judgment) by Turretinfan

List Three has questions/comments for both or neither debater to be answered in parallel by the debaters without reference to each other's answers.

This is the penultimate stage of the debate. The last stage will be a 2000 word conclusion from each of the debaters.

Moderator Note: Reminder The End is Near

The end of the cross-examination period of the debate is near, that is. One round of Q&A left for each side (4 more posts) and then it's time for audience questions, some of which are more usable than others. If you're in the audience and you have a question, for either side, please ask it by commenting on any post on the debate blog.

Moderator Note - Roadmap

At least one person has noted that this debate seems a bit disorganized.

Here's the overall layout:

Resolution
Affirmative Opening Argument
Negative Opening Argument
Negative 1st Question / Affirmative 1st Answer
Affirmative 1st Question / Negative 1st Answer
Negative 2nd Question / Affirmative 2nd Answer
Affirmative 2nd Question / Negative 2nd Answer
Negative 3rd Question / Affirmative 3rd Answer
Affirmative 3rd Question / Negative 3rd Answer
Negative 4th Question / Affirmative 4th Answer
Affirmative 4th Question / Negative 4th Answer
Negative 5th Question / Affirmative 5th Answer
Affirmative 5th Question / Negative 5th Answer
Negative 6th Question / Affirmative 6th Answer
Affirmative 6th Question / Negative 6th Answer
Negative 7th Question / Affirmative 7th Answer
Affirmative 7th Question / Negative 7th Answer
Negative 8th Question / Affirmative 8th Answer
Affirmative 8th Question / Negative 8th Answer
Negative 9th Question / Affirmative 9th Answer
Affirmative 9th Question / Negative 9th Answer
Negative 10th Question / Affirmative 10th Answer
Affirmative 10th Question / Negative 10th Answer
Several Audience Questions / First Answer by the Target of the Question and Second Answer by the Other Side
(21 audience comments so far, but many are unuseable)
Negative Concluding Argument
Affirmative Concluding Argument

You should be able to see from which "speeches" have links where exactly we are, and where we are headed.

Moderator Note: Audience Comments

Please note that we've already received a few comments/questions from readers of the blog, and we appreciate your interest. In order to avoid deflecting this debate into the comboxes, we are going to gather up the comments that are made during the Q&A period and address a limited number of them as "audience questions" just prior to the concluding statements.

Moderator Note

The opening statements have now been made. The next stage of this debate will be a series of ten questions from each side to the other (twenty questions total), which the other side will have the opportunity to answer.

Introduction to the Debate Blog

The debate blog is here to serve a role of providing edifying debate for those who participate.