Saturday, November 3, 2007

Audience Questions - List Two for "Orthodox"

Questions for the Negative writer, “Orthodox”

1. Tradition and Basil

Truly Francis has a dislike of icons. You may find it interesting that many reformed churches are going over to images and using them in various ways, but would you have God lessen the commandments simply because people break them?


2. From Wittenberg to Antioch

Do you believe that Holy Scripture contains all the doctrines we must believe to be saved or do you believe we must know and believe other doctrines outside of and distinct from the bible to be saved?



3. How Much Heresy can you stomach
(from EgoMakarios)
After listing infant baptism on your list, you state "if your list does contain most of the above items, that means you would have advocated leaving the established church in the early 2nd century."

You just admitted that the church practiced beleiver's baptism up to the second century. You might as well be admitting that your church is the result of an apostacy that took place in the third century when infant baptism was brought in from Paganism, since that is what your church is. Interesting also that this admission shows both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the vaunted Reformed Church to be in error. A return to Sola Scriptura is shown to be needed by both sides of this discussion, therefore.

4. The Protestant Revision of History
(from Rhology)
On this post, I'd like to know if Orthodox knows whether the 7th Council interacted with Scriptural psgs that would seem to proscribe the veneration of and prayer to images. I'd like to know which psgs and where I can find their discussions thereof.

And if they did not, I'd like to know why a lover of the Word of God would take the decision of the 7th Council as serious and/or authoritative.

5. The Protestant Revision of History
(from Saint and Sinner)
Even the Roman Catholic, Ludwig Ott, wrote:

“Owing to the influence of the Old Testament prohibition of images, Christian veneration of images developed only after the victory of the Church over paganism. The Synod of Elvira (about 306) still prohibited figurative representations in the houses of God (Can. 36).”

-Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1974), p. 320.

“Why have they [i.e. the Christians] no altars, no temples, no acknowledged images?”

-Caecilius, as found in Minucius Felix’s The Octavius of Minucius Felix 10


“As, then, this act of self-restraint, which in appearance is one and the same, is found in fact to be different in different persons, according to the principles and motives which lead to it; so in the same way with those who cannot allow in the worship of the Divine Being altars, or temples, or images. The Scythians, the Nomadic Libyans, the godless Seres, and the Persians, agree in this with the Christians and Jews, but they are actuated by very different principles. For none of these former abhor altars and images on the ground that they arc afraid of degrading the worship of God, and reducing it to the worship of material things wrought by the hands of men. Neither do they object to them from a belief that the demons choose certain forms and places, whether because they are detained there by virtue of certain charms, or because for some other possible reason they have selected these haunts, where they may pursue their criminal pleasures, in partaking of the smoke of sacrificial victims. But Christians and Jews have regard to this command, “Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve Him alone;” and this other, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me: thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;” and again, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God…we may reply that it is easy to know that God and the Only-begotten Son of God, and those whom God has honoured with the title of God, and who partake of His divine nature, are very different from all the gods of the nations which are demons; *but it is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images*.”

-Origen, Against Celsus 7.64-65

Epiphanius of Salamis:

“Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort-opposed as they are to our religion-shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offence unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge.”

-Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, The Letters of St. Jerome 51.9

6. Show us the Canon
(from Saint and Sinner)

You seem to only be reading commentaries written by liberals or other historical-critical scholars. Perhaps you should read conservative works as well to see how we address those problems.

OR, if you want a smaller, more popular-level book which focuses on the NT canon:

7. Tradition Self-Correcting
(from L P Cruz)
Tradition is self correcting and thus fallible, if it is fallible it is not inspired.


8. Show us the Canon
(from Benjamin P. Glaser)
Fascinating stuff. I would like to hear a more thorough examination of the the three Johns. One of my New Testament professors swears by 1 Clement's canonical status.

9. Seek no farther
(from Albert)
"Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken."

Can you tell us the doctrinal content of "traditions" in the context of Paul's Epistle? Thanks.

No comments: